Definitions, Please

What do you think of when you hear the words feminine and femininity? This is serious. I need real definitions, from both men and women.

Further questions... what does feminity look like to you?

Is femininity the exact opposite of masculinity? Or is it something that goes beyond definitions that are simply in contrast or comparison to the masculine?

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Now for a moment of attitude, and it's only because ridiculous rumors are circulating.

Please note it was Dr. H. Elise Austin who passed away and was memorialized on Saturday. Both Dr. Wilma Ellis and Ms. Helen Hobbes are still here with us. In the future, please consider not passing on information without facts. Baha'i World News Service, the US Baha'i National Administrative Web site, the obituary page in the American Baha'i and your local community newsletters are all excellent ways to find these facts.

Comments

[abi]

i think of a lot of bullshit. There may have been a time when there was some reality to feminine and masculine, but these days, if there is any, it has nothing to do with gender or sex. Granted, there is some residual cling from these that's created a certain amount of our reality, but when it comes right down to it, i really don't think that there is any human quality that can be relegated to male or female. i think that with the balance of the biological and the spiritual, we are going to find that there are unlimited possibilities for versions of male and female and they are all valid and valuable. It may turn out that there are really some validly masculine and feminine qualities, but at this stage in our development, i don't see that we are equipped to identify or envision them, so it seems best to let go of them and see what and who people are without categorizing their qualities.

[Lev]

Ohh some of my favorite people and ideas. kari, i've been jazzed for a number of months on the fact that gender is "an exigency of the physical world" and is entirely unrelated to our souls. which most days i take to mean that gender doesn't place bounds on our soul's progress or what we are capable of. what abi's saying here about "unlimited possibilities for versions of male and female and they are all valid and valuable," most days that is what i take this idea to mean.

But rein in those horses, lev! What about this: there are certain qualities that i absolutely associate with those women in my life who "do not suffer fools gladly." qualities such as a devotion to truth-telling, emotional honesty, clear and candid speaking. these are capacities that i associate with the strong women who grace my life in my luckiest hours. these are qualities that i most definitely assign as "feminine" in the compartmentalized, yet-to-be-completely-unified corners of my head.

a) i see these qualities in women around me, and want to emulate them. the fact that i see them more in women may speak to my own biases. it may speak to certain exigencies of this material world that cause the sort of truth-telling i'm imagining to manifest more often in women. the fact that i want to emulate them may speak to my own shifting views of what 'gender' entails, or it may speak to a wider fact about the existence of such qualities in all of us. none of these possibilities are mutually exclusive.

b) my new hero dr. elsie austin embodied the forthrightness and honesty that i'm talking about. and it was strange to hear so much focus on her femininity when i'm eternally striving to think about bodies and beauty in new, less physical ways. talking about someone being 'ladylike' is way far away from what i'm used to. but it's important to remember how important that is for folks -- what an important role model she could be for young women looking up to her, struggling to see themselves as worthwhile and beautiful. i'm searching for a way to make these ideas come together -- to honor dr. austin's presence and stature as "a lady" while recognizing that what so embodies her femininity for me is her commitment to speaking truth. basically, i'm excited to see what other thoughts are going to be posted on this.

[Sholeh]

I'm not so great with explaining these things in words (I much prefer a dialogue with live interaction). I love how Lev talked about the concept of "ladylike"...and there is certainly nothing wrong with people being "gentlemen" or "ladies". To me, those things signify something outside of traditional gender stereotypes. Maybe that is my personal view on things, but I often get frustrated with the lack of general civility and politeness in our society...which perhaps could be attributed to trying so hard to adjust our interactions to be "equal" that we've gone to the other extreme, and started becoming rude to each other in an effort to be androgynous.

[kari]

keep 'em coming. i need as many diverse opinions as possible.

and, as for ms. austin. there was a definite power in her "ladylike" characteristics. unfortunately, we didn't get to use the photo from her family archives the caption of which read "Elsie Austin, Attorney." okay, so this was her first professional photo and can i tell you how flirtatious her stance was? not that flirtation = femininity. but, the look on her face, the arch of her back, the tilt of her head - not what you'd "expect" from the first Black woman Assistant State's Attorney. but, yet, as with every move in her life she always defied expectation. and there was power in that defiance. even when the defiance was not to pose for a photo the way a man in the same position would.

[Mara]

Okay, Kari, you said keep 'em coming, so despite having met you once briefly at the National Centre. Here are some of my thoughts:

Wow...I really miss this kind of dialogue. Why do I miss this when I am at the Baha'i World Centre? WHY?

I imagine Nancy has talked to you about this.

Other than that, as much as I fight it, when I hear feminine & femininity, I think of pink and frilly lace. I imagine this discussion came as a result of Dr. Austin's funeral service, but an equally important question: what do you think of when you hear masculinity and masculine? Know what? I get scared. A part deep inside of me, even writing out that question, got scared. That's not exactly the opposite of pink, frilly lace, and probably points to some deep psychological issues I have.

Of course, those are my thoughts on first impulse - my gut reactions. But then, even though I love Lev's description of femininity, when in doubt people return to their gut. Is feminine anything that a woman chooses to embrace? Is it feminine because I do it, and not a man? Then what is 'not very feminine'? And what's not very masculine? Are there levels of femininity? Who decides them? I suppose that may be the real question - who gets to decide what feminine is? Why do we abide by those definitions (as a society? as a generation?)?

Sorry, I'll stop taking up your space. Cheers. And thanks for letting me drink up your conversation of substance.

By the way, Dr. Austin makes me feel terribly silly about not wanting to get my PhD. Wow, that was an AMAZING woman.

[kari]

Mara - stop by anytime. Please. And comment as often as you'd like.

[rebecca]

I've been thinking about this question since you posted it yesterday. Like Mara, I was fighting my first reaction, which was to list all the stereotypes of feminine: soft, pink, frilly, graceful, kind, playful, flirtatious but not sexual, pretty, refined, principled but not strong-willed. Those are the things that come to mind. And if you are looking for a definition of femininity as the term is commonly used, I don't think there is anything wrong with referring to stereotypes - that's just what the word means in common parlance.

I think what makes us feel uncomfortable is that ever since Tahirih took off her veil 150 years ago, women have been trying to redefine femininity, and we're not quite there yet. I do think there must be some difference between masculine and feminine; after all, God created 2 sexes, and everything in creation somehow reflects a spiritual reality. The question is, what is that reality, or what do we want it to be?

[Jess]

Actually, the word femininity evokes "feelings" of anger, safety, self-conciousness and pride within me. As I reflect on everything that comes to mind, I realize the huge presence of extremes and opposites. Obviously we're all confused - very, very confused.
Part of me thinks that being a "lady" (I still have feelings of rebellion associated with that word) means being weak, obediant to men, quiet, conformist, and not at all adventurous or assertive. Being a woman, on the other hand, can mean (to me) being emotionally stong, concerned with others, understanding....service oriented, I guess. How do I know if these attributes/behaviours are constructions of society, or of God?

[Sholeh]

I try to think of those women (like Dr. Austin, Ruhiyyih Khanum, etc) that are examples to me. Those women were/are strong, forward-thinking, amazing people. And they did not try to downplay being female, or try to make themselves be less womanly (whatever that means, and I'm sure it is a debate unto itself!). It makes me sad to see the guilt and anger associated with being a "lady". Perhaps I've been lucky in my interactions with people, and have a more positive view on what "femininity" is.

I looked up "lady" on dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lady) The first 3 definitions follow:
1. A well-mannered and considerate woman with high standards of proper behavior.
2. A woman regarded as proper and virtuous.
3. A woman who is the head of a household.

There is also a usage note, which I found useful. I kinda like this definition. :-)

[Denise]

Like Rebecca, I have only what I think of as stereotypical connotations when I think of the word feminine. And pink and frilly are the two words at the top of my list. I have noticed especially during this last year on the job at Split Rock Lighthouse that the majority of young girls - we're talking 6 and under - wear nothing but pink clothing and carry purses or bags that have princesses on them, or tote around their princess doll. When I mention this to the mothers, with a smile on my face, they roll their eyes and assure me that they had nothing to do with this obsession.

My two conclusions from these observations:
1) Either the tendancy to be pink and frilly or the urge to imitate what one sees is innate in the female sex;
2) Or, grown women are still fighting this definition of feminine, as in the case of the mothers who are not happy that their daughters are all in pink.

So, which do we try to influence? The choice of fashion or the worries that girls will not grow up to be independent, non-conformist women if they wear pink and feel like a princess in childhood?

[Lev]

I think of my friend Mac, and Tootsie. Mac wants to be a firefighter. (She may in fact be a firefighter right now.) Mac is beautiful. Mac gets looks from other women like, "What are you doing in here?" when she uses the women's bathroom. Mac claimed the name "Mac" as her own sometime in elementary school, to counter the image that she should be a "princess." I have always known Mac by that name, and it is the only name by which I feel completely comfortable calling her.

Story: Mac once met a man, the grandfather of a friend (I believe). Man (old man) asks Mac her name. Mac tells him. Old man scoffs, "That's not a name for a girl. That can't be your name." Mac insists that it is (in fact) her name. Old man says, "Well I'm not going to call you that. I'll call you Tootsie." Mac found this vaguely hilarious. (Everyone who knows her finds the idea of calling her "Tootsie" vaguely hilarious, because it is so far from who Mac is.) But there he was, this grandfather, refusing to recognize the way that Mac was a woman.

What I love about this story is that it ends so clearly with the understanding that Mac is a woman. Mac isn't trying to run away from being a woman; Mac loves being a woman. But being a woman means some different things for her than for the old man, and possibly for many others. I don't know what this has to do with femininity... Mac is feminine to me. I see her in some very specific ways that get lumped into 'feminine' in my head. Perhaps in contrast to much of who she is, I see Mac as soft and vulnerable sometimes, and I think that is what makes me think of her as feminine. You know, we are all vulnerable to the world. We hurt and get hurt all the time. Maybe part of what I see as feminine, and associate with the women I have been privileged to meet in my life, is a knowing presence to that vulnerability. A recognition that we have to be present to our emotional lives in the world. (That the world hurts sometimes and that we have to be present to that hurt?) That's all for now.

[Jess]

Oh man. This is such a laden subject. Reading Lev's comment "You know, we are all vulnerable to the world. We hurt and get hurt all the time." made me cry. This goes so deep! It may have something to do with being hurt constantly by others when I was a kid...maybe I developed this tough persona to protect myself. "Tough" may be the exact opposite of what society tells us femininity is. But I'm tough (or at least I seem that way), so does that mean I'm less of a woman? Am I less of a woman because I don't wear skin tight clothing or base my life around attracting men? I think I've rebelled quite a bit against what society told me a woman was "supossed" to be. But because of that I'm often embarrassed (especially around my family) to show any type of action/feeling associated with "being a woman", i.e. - wanting to get married and/or have children, showing physical or emotional affection or longing (besides hugs) including singing (my family has never heard me sing - that makes me want to cry) - singing is probably the number one way I express myself...and I can't share it with my family, because...maybe I'd be seen as passionate or "womanly" by them, and for some reason that scares the crap out of me. I know this may not make sense to most of you, but this phenomenon is definitely closely related to the topic at hand. I guess I'm sharing these thoughts because I want to emphasize out what an important and deeply rooted issue this is. Some people are obviously more directly effected by it than others, but it's something we should all take ownership of if we are to...conquer is the word that comes to mind, but this doesn't have to be a battle.

We've probably all heard people talked about how confused men are about what it means to be a man in this day, or how it must be so difficult for them to know what their "role" is in this changing society. Well, men aren't the only ones who are confused.

[Paula]

Hi all,
Interesting discussion. You may want to consider finding the book by Bahiyyih Nakshavani (sp?) called Response. I read it at age 19 and it changed my life and heavily influenced how I think about the topics you are discussing. I think you would find it thought-provoking and helpful. Regards.

[kari]

Thanks, Paula. I'm going to look for that one.